Teleport Ball Behavior Change

[JustinPierce]

What if instead of using the orb, it was more like Tracer's teleport in Overwatch?

[Grandy]

is it me, or does that look a bit more like the space tunnel-style thing I had described a while ago but noone really latched onto?

[JustinPierce]

For reference:

It's extremely quick and I could see that maybe working -- I guess when you described your tunnel, I assumed it'd take more time to go through it.

[Grandy]

The speed I referred to was somewhere between the current orb speed and the speed you see there.
Basically the time to teleport (from orb being thrown to orb reaching target and teleport occurring) would be the same as the time it would take to go through the "tunnel" and reach the same spot.. the difference is that players could more easily track you and you could more easily track where you are.

At least, if I was playing around with it, that's what I'd try first.

[JustinPierce]

0.3.2 has a new TP mechanic to try, inspired by Tracer. Figured simplicity is best, so I wanted to see if we could ditch the orb. Also think having to wait for the orb really made it hard to catch runaway opponents. Marked this thread as complete even though I went with a different solution (anybody think there's a better way to handle the tags in this case?)

[PrettzL]

'Being Tested'?

[PrettzL]

The new change is pretty good for 0g but fairly difficult to benefit from during indoor combat since it still maintains your previous "forward direction" which the momentum remains set to.

[JustinPierce]

It should just be keeping your momentum generally. Like, be moving forward, look to the side, teleport, and you should still be moving to the side.

edit: after playtest, I think we'll be keeping it like this for the time being.

[Grandy]

0.3.2 has a new TP mechanic to try, inspired by Tracer. Figured simplicity is best, so I wanted to see if we could ditch the orb. Also think having to wait for the orb really made it hard to catch runaway opponents. Marked this thread as complete even though I went with a different solution (anybody think there's a better way to handle the tags in this case?)

I'mma re-open this topic and put my thing from the feedback thread into here.

• Teleport blade - I still think there's a better version out there - as said before, I'd like to try a 'charge a dash' kind of system, where for ~0.6s you charge up a dash and then you look in the direction you want to go during that time and it dashes there once fully charged. You could have an audio cue for someone charging and using their dash each time, and a visual extension of the mech to more easily show the direction they are facing while they are charging up.

[JustinPierce]

One of the issues I had with the instant teleport that also applies here is still the fact that when you teleport, you teleport 'some distance ahead' -- the ball gives you an exact representation of where you'll end up, which is a huge plus to me.

They're functionally very similar -- both have a delay between initiating teleport and actually teleporting and I assume the meter means you can teleport variable distance with timing. I'm still not completely sure what problem this is solving.

Ball teleport:
+ a ball showing exactly where they'll teleport
+ a trail showing general direction of ball when ball isn't in your field of view
+ the player could be facing a different direction than where they'll teleport (as the teleporter, you can shoot ball to left of player, move mouse to right so you're pointed in correct direction when you arrive, which makes it feel much nicer)
- because you can face a different direction, someone can't look at you to determine direction you'll teleport (but you still have trail/ball so unless you're RIGHT next to them I don't see how this is a problem)

Mockup
+ you can determine direction they'll teleport by looking at the direction they're facing
- you don't have a marker showing exactly where they'll teleport
- you don't even know how far they'll teleport

Am I missing something? Help me understand why that's a good tradeoff. Additionally, with the ball teleport couldn't you just have some energy pointer effect coming out of the mech indicating teleport direction?

[Grandy]

One of the issues I had with the instant teleport that also applies here is still the fact that when you teleport, you teleport 'some distance ahead' -- the ball gives you an exact representation of where you'll end up, which is a huge plus to me.

If your viewport allows you to see where it ends up, yeah. As you know, I've found it hard to track it as a defender, and use it to get where I want to as an attacker... from what I've experienced, the main functions of the teleport part of the TB is to get up close to use the melee attack, to have a bit of mind-game in terms of juking and have those oddball potential movement quirks like flag runs. I think the mockup should cover most of that in some reasonable way - the "Tracer" TB was more effective at getting up close than the ball, but was a bit too good.. but it was friendly to use, which is what I liked about it - that and you had limited charges, so you had a chance to out manoeuvre the attacker if you're quick enough, rather than a circle spam of beams and balls trying to get close lol. This feeling might be fueled by the current level of our players, so I can't truly say whether the problem originates with the tool or the craftsman.

They're functionally very similar -- both have a delay between initiating teleport and actually teleporting and I assume the meter means you can teleport variable distance with timing. I'm still not completely sure what problem this is solving.

The ball teleport and this mockup have a few things in common but a lot of differences, hence it being a suggested re-work for testing purposes. The mockup's design could have variable distance, could be neat for smaller jukes to avoid fire at close-mid range.
When I imagine it, it takes the "Tracer" version of the TB and removes the spammy nature of it, while potentially increasing clarity for the defender. I enjoyed using the "Tracer" TB - I felt the teleport was much more controlled and I was able to use it to close the gap more effectively than the ball teleport while still being able to perform the more complex movement quirks. If made less spammy, I think it would be much more manageable for the defender, which to me was the "Tracer" TB's flaw - people came in range too quick and with little counter-play.

Ball teleport:
+ a ball showing exactly where they'll teleport // however, when in close range, the ball is often offscreen... so surely "exact" doesn't really matter, if you need to be aiming and shooting at the attacking mech?
+ a trail showing general direction of ball when ball isn't in your field of view // I'll give you that point, but still something extra to track if you're the defender, that isn't the attackers' mech itself.. which should be the thing you're aiming at.
+ the player could be facing a different direction than where they'll teleport (as the teleporter, you can shoot ball to left of player, move mouse to right so you're pointed in correct direction when you arrive, which makes it feel much nicer) // I'll comment on this later - while my mockup doesn't allow for this feature, it does add something different. Instead of direction after teleport, you get to alter your direction before it instead.
- because you can face a different direction, someone can't look at you to determine direction you'll teleport (but you still have trail/ball so unless you're RIGHT next to them I don't see how this is a problem) // it's a melee weapon, so surely "RIGHT next to them" is the operational range of the weapon?

Mockup
+ you can determine direction they'll teleport by looking at the direction they're facing
+ ...which means that you can continue aiming and shooting at the incoming attacker while acquiring the information on where they are going to go
- you don't have a marker showing exactly where they'll teleport // mentioned above - close range and that 'exactness' is fluffy
- you don't even know how far they'll teleport // true, but if it's offscreen then it doesn't matter whether it's at 3, 4 or 5 o'clock - they're all offscreen. I would also mention the usage of sound to denote how much charge the TB user has - a fairly easily distinguishable sound with its source being on the mech you are trying to aim at - again putting the focus in a central place

Am I missing something? Help me understand why that's a good tradeoff. Additionally, with the ball teleport couldn't you just have some energy pointer effect coming out of the mech indicating teleport direction?

You could, but it might look a little odd when combined with what you currently have.

Regarding the 'changing the direction you're facing while the ball is in the air' thing, while my mockup doesn't have that, it does allow you to change your direction before teleporting and convey that information as it happens and when up close. You can change where you go at the last moment, and enables the defender to continue their focus on the mech that's attacking them. I'm not sure if it'd be better for juking or not to be honest, the two ways would probably be equivalent when it comes to that.

TLDR:

The small fact is that I enjoyed the "Tracer" TB, so I wanted to try come up with what I enjoyed, minus some of the aspects of it that I heard people found annoying. The "Tracer" TB was simple and easy to understand, but able to be spammed and hard to defend against. I believe my proposal potentially enhances the better bits and removes some of the worser bits.

If you're confident that with better art clarity and sound you can make it less discombobulating and nicer to use, then I have no problem in burying this and moving on. I put strong arguments forward because it's in my nature to do so and I know that I will speak based on what I experience and often without filter - it maybe a case of getting used to it more. I know you want to do everything for the soft launch so I'm fine to bury it anyway, but if after the art sweep I still feel the same way, I would be interested in revisiting this topic.

[JustinPierce]

So what I didn't realize until recently is that you play against the TB differently than I do. When someone fires the TB ball, you seem to keep aiming at the mech. I don't think that's always the optimal way to play.

Instead, I get ready to shoot where they're going to teleport to. I pay attention to the ball because that's where they are going to be next. I want to keep shooting them, so I'll prepare myself and be ready to shoot when they finish teleporting and get some good shots in. But perhaps more importantly, I want to keep my distance from them, so I'll start moving away from where the ball will be. The ball is there for a reason! It's important to track! Choosing not to track it can have consequences.

Where would it make sense to keep shooting at the mech instead? If you think you can kill them before they finish teleporting, that's an obvious one. The only other one I can think of is if you think the teleport will not significantly increase the danger you're in, so you'd be better served by doing more damage to them before teleport and essentially continue the fight like normal as if the teleport didn't happen. But in most cases, I think the teleport will be a big danger to you so it's better to prepare for it to mitigate that threat with a response.

Yes, they could fire the ball but not teleport, but that's just part of the mind game. It's a trade-off -- they didn't end up teleporting and therefor didn't gain the advantages of teleporting so it's a big gamble for them. If you suspect they are faking, keep shooting the mech -- that's how you win that mind game.

I really like how all that interplay happens when you have the ball mechanics. It makes it far more interesting and opens it up to more skillful plays on both sides, in my opinion. Sometimes it's better to do X, sometimes better to do Y -- I think that sort of choice is part of what makes competitive games interesting.

If your viewport allows you to see where it ends up, yeah

This is not a matter of chance, though -- you can decide to track it or not. You seem to think you should be able to decide not to track it without any consequences, but that's not how it's designed. It's designed to provide value in tracking it, as explained above -- if you choose not to track it, you're willingly giving up that value and taking on the consequences.

I enjoyed using the "Tracer" TB - I felt the teleport was much more controlled

I felt the opposite. Without the ball, where you teleport to is just a guess. An educated guess, but still a guess. With the ball, I can shoot it exactly where I want and release exactly when I want to teleport exactly where I want. Additionally, I can anticipate my relative position to a target and start to rotate myself so that I'm looking at them when I finish teleporting, which makes it feel so much nicer -- teleporting to the side of someone and looking the wrong direction is incredibly cumbersome.

// I'll comment on this later - while my mockup doesn't allow for this feature, it does add something different. Instead of direction after teleport, you get to alter your direction before it instead.

You're still teleporting to the side of someone while looking the wrong direction, so it still feels just as cumbersome and doesn't actually address the problem.

But selling it as a juke as you did in Discord chat also contradicts the very goals of these changes. Being able to watch the mech to determine where it will teleport is THE advantage of your proposal, but then it seems like you're suggesting you'd be able to change last minute to juke somebody into thinking they'll teleport a different direction. So we either have two possibilities.

1. Changing direction last minute can effectively juke people, so direction the mech is facing is an unreliable way to determine where they'll teleport, which basically means replacing the ball/trail will remove information about where they'll teleport and replace it with basically nothing because players could essentially teleport anywhere (within range) without sufficient warning.

2. You're overselling the juking capability and last minute adjustments will be easy to track, rendering it a moot point because it's essentially not a thing.

All it would add is the ability to change your mind as to where you want to teleport after initiating it. Imagine the ball system except the ball is attached to a rod coming out of the front of your mech. If you rotate your mech, you're also rotating the rod with the ball at the end in front of you. That's what your mockup allows, it just hides the ball. Even if you showed the ball to give extra clarity, I think that change would make things overall LESS predictable and harder to play against. With the current ball/trail, it travels in a straight line, which is more predictable. (and it would still suffer from the cumbersome problem when you teleport to the side of someone)

// I'll give you that point, but still something extra to track if you're the defender, that isn't the attackers' mech itself.. which should be the thing you're aiming at.

I'm not sure why this is stated as a safe assumption. FPS games often have you tracking things other than the enemy's body. Are they moving toward a jump pad or pickup in the environment? Worth tracking that so you can anticipate and respond, or even prevent. Are they firing rockets or throwing grenades at you? Worth tracking those so you can dodge them. Are there other players around? Worth tracking those because it might be worth disengaging from your current target if they're getting backup. I don't think tracking the ball/trail is somehow outside the scope of FPS games. I mean, it's actually very similar to how the translocator works in UT (except in AoT, someone can't blow you up by teleporting into you).

// it's a melee weapon, so surely "RIGHT next to them" is the operational range of the weapon?

But we're talking about teleporting to get in close so they can stab you. After they're in close, a teleport is not an immediate threat to you. But again, if they can juke you

The ball/trail accomplishes several of the goals I have for the weapon and I don't really agree with the downsides described here -- at least not relative to the proposed solutions. The proposal just has too many disadvantages and I'm not convinced of the advantages. I do want to refine the art and feedback for the weapon (for both shooter and victim) and I think that can help improve the experience without changing how it functions.

[Grandy]

So what I didn't realize until recently is that you play against the TB differently than I do. When someone fires the TB ball, you seem to keep aiming at the mech. I don't think that's always the optimal way to play.

...

Where would it make sense to keep shooting at the mech instead? If you think you can kill them before they finish teleporting, that's an obvious one.

...

Yes, they could fire the ball but not teleport, but that's just part of the mind game. It's a trade-off -- they didn't end up teleporting and therefor didn't gain the advantages of teleporting so it's a big gamble for them. If you suspect they are faking, keep shooting the mech -- that's how you win that mind game.

Well, you either have to shoot at them before they teleport or after they teleport... so if someone does two teleports in a row do you just not fire at them at all that entire time and wait for them to stop teleporting..? because then you're doing what I'm doing anyway, except before the second teleport rather than before the first teleport?... so the way I see it, you're better off firing at what you see and try to keep track of the ball in a general sense (which is the thing that I find discombobulating at closer ranges with the ball as it currently is) rather than waiting to see where they pop to, especially as they can simply not take the teleport and potentially stick you and proceed to get away with most of their health..? surely before is just cutting out the initial wait?

I do agree though, if I did what you're doing, I would find it less confusing to try to counter - but I think it's potentially not optimal for the reasons above.

This is not a matter of chance, though -- you can decide to track it or not. You seem to think you should be able to decide not to track it without any consequences, but that's not how it's designed. It's designed to provide value in tracking it, as explained above -- if you choose not to track it, you're willingly giving up that value and taking on the consequences.

You can decide to shoot and attempt to get a sense of direction from the blue streak, or decide to aim/track the ball, in which case you're not shooting until they land.. and if they teleport again... back to the above.

I felt the opposite. Without the ball, where you teleport to is just a guess. An educated guess, but still a guess.

Which in my case, is all I need - a good and clear educated guess.

// I'll give you that point, but still something extra to track if you're the defender, that isn't the attackers' mech itself.. which should be the thing you're aiming at.

I'm not sure why this is stated as a safe assumption. FPS games often have you tracking things other than the enemy's body.

True you track a rocket or a nade to some degree - try to move away from it, but generally you try to be unpredictable in the first place and kill the guy before he fires any more.

The ball/trail accomplishes several of the goals I have for the weapon and I don't really agree with the downsides described here -- at least not relative to the proposed solutions. The proposal just has too many disadvantages and I'm not convinced of the advantages. I do want to refine the art and feedback for the weapon (for both shooter and victim) and I think that can help improve the experience without changing how it functions.

As said, I know there's zero chance of this or some other TB method being tried in the near future whatsoever, so I would be interested to see how the current method feels with the art/sound updates you have planned. It seems we are approaching the same thing from two very different angles, or.. timings.

[JustinPierce]

Well, you either have to shoot at them before they teleport or after they teleport... so if someone does two teleports in a row do you just not fire at them at all that entire time and wait for them to stop teleporting..? because then you're doing what I'm doing anyway, except before the second teleport rather than before the first teleport?... so the way I see it, you're better off firing at what you see and try to keep track of the ball in a general sense (which is the thing that I find discombobulating at closer ranges with the ball as it currently is) rather than waiting to see where they pop to, especially as they can simply not take the teleport and potentially stick you and proceed to get away with most of their health..? surely before is just cutting out the initial wait?

I do agree though, if I did what you're doing, I would find it less confusing to try to counter - but I think it's potentially not optimal for the reasons above.

I mean, currently we have two projectile weapons and EoJ. If you have EoJ, you're probably fucked anyway. With MC and RL, you can look somewhere else after you fire. You can also fire ahead of time before they finish teleporting. So you could anticipate where they'll teleport (MUCH easier with ball) and have projectiles coming to meet them, so they'll still be damaged if they teleport right after. Additionally, you could fire off some shots at the beginning of their teleport ball and then turn to track the ball for the second half or whatever of the ball's trajectory (say, when it goes off screen ).

But again, I think the big advantage of tracking the ball is positioning. You know where they'll be, so you can position yourself to be somewhere else. If you just let them teleport wherever they want because you're only concerned about shooting them, you're putting yourself in a lot more danger. You might draw out the fight because you're doing less damage to them, but in the end you'll likely improve your chance of survival. If you have friendlies nearby, this is especially true because they'll be firing at the TB user too.

[Grandy]

I mean, currently we have two projectile weapons and EoJ. If you have EoJ, you're probably fucked anyway.

Agreed.

With MC and RL, you can look somewhere else after you fire. You can also fire ahead of time before they finish teleporting. So you could anticipate where they'll teleport (MUCH easier with ball) and have projectiles coming to meet them, so they'll still be damaged if they teleport right after. Additionally, you could fire off some shots at the beginning of their teleport ball and then turn to track the ball for the second half or whatever of the ball's trajectory (say, when it goes off screen ).

Fire ahead of time? Again we're not talking about close range, which is more the kind of range that you need to be able to shoot to kill. If someone is coming at you from mid-range with TB teleports, then sure, that's kind of a given - but I'd argue that they're not adapting their movement and pathing to the style of the weapon, which should be close and close-mid range, where your bullets would have gone past the potential end point most of the time. If you just fire along where the ball currently is, you're only potentially going to land one shot if the guy keeps teleporting, which he should be doing if he hasn't gotten the tag on you yet.

But again, I think the big advantage of tracking the ball is positioning. You know where they'll be, so you can position yourself to be somewhere else. If you just let them teleport wherever they want because you're only concerned about shooting them, you're putting yourself in a lot more danger. You might draw out the fight because you're doing less damage to them, but in the end you'll likely improve your chance of survival. If you have friendlies nearby, this is especially true because they'll be firing at the TB user too.

The position is often unclear - to me the streak and the position of the player is disjointed, and everything is too fast when it counts the most.

[PrettzL]

I hate to say this @Grandy but it really seems like you need help understanding how to approach someone using the TB.

I can set up a workshop or something with @Ilses to demonstrate the how to's of the weapon both for use, defending against it and countering it effectively.

[Grandy]

You think, based on previous history in-game, that I need a workshop for this?

I still manage to kill TB users most of the time, and I use the weapon every now and again, it just doesn't feel as nice or as fun as the tracer TB we had for a while there in my opinion. Sure, it had its flaws, but to me it was friendlier to the senses both when using it and defending against it... so I know how the current one works, it's more that I don't think it's in the best form it could take.

[PrettzL]

You think, based on previous history in-game, that I need a workshop for this?

No offence, but yes.

[Grandy]

As per usual, we shall agree to disagree.

[JustinPierce]